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	<title>Comments on: Finding the countercanon</title>
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	<description>A student of English lit tries to make it from ABD to Ph.D.</description>
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		<title>By: k8</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>k8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 18:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-284</guid>
		<description>I just started browsing through a book on my to-read list that deals with these issues (from what I can tell, anyway).  It&#039;s an edited collection titled Pedagogy in the Age of Politics:  Writing and Reading (in) the Academy.  It&#039;s edited by Patricia A. Sullivan and Donna J. Quailey, and was published by NCTE in 1994.   I might just have more to say later on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just started browsing through a book on my to-read list that deals with these issues (from what I can tell, anyway).  It&#8217;s an edited collection titled Pedagogy in the Age of Politics:  Writing and Reading (in) the Academy.  It&#8217;s edited by Patricia A. Sullivan and Donna J. Quailey, and was published by NCTE in 1994.   I might just have more to say later on.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 17:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-283</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, since this is now going in the direction of American ethnocentrism, another thing that always bothered me about my English classes in high school was the way that ethnocentrism was assumed. As Goodreadings points out, American readers are not necessarily going to be familiar with the cultural context of writing by authors taken to be WASPs, but many teachers assume the students are, and teach accordingly. I have no accurate count of how many times a teacher asked us to identify the Biblical symbolism from a particular passage, but it was a lot, and I was always sure to notice, because it was one of the few questions I couldn&#039;t answer, along with all the other heathen children in the room.

This wasn&#039;t so much the problem in college, because all my lit classes were in Spanish, so the profs didn&#039;t make as many assumptions about what the students would or would not be familiar with. Teaching world lit in an English class wouldn&#039;t really be much of a stretch if profs already taught all the classical canon as if the students weren&#039;t familiar with it. American/British literature already &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; world literature to a lot of students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, since this is now going in the direction of American ethnocentrism, another thing that always bothered me about my English classes in high school was the way that ethnocentrism was assumed. As Goodreadings points out, American readers are not necessarily going to be familiar with the cultural context of writing by authors taken to be WASPs, but many teachers assume the students are, and teach accordingly. I have no accurate count of how many times a teacher asked us to identify the Biblical symbolism from a particular passage, but it was a lot, and I was always sure to notice, because it was one of the few questions I couldn&#8217;t answer, along with all the other heathen children in the room.</p>
<p>This wasn&#8217;t so much the problem in college, because all my lit classes were in Spanish, so the profs didn&#8217;t make as many assumptions about what the students would or would not be familiar with. Teaching world lit in an English class wouldn&#8217;t really be much of a stretch if profs already taught all the classical canon as if the students weren&#8217;t familiar with it. American/British literature already <i>is</i> world literature to a lot of students.</p>
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		<title>By: goodreadings</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>goodreadings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 15:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-282</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Esposito would dispute the idea that any reader (whatever their background knowledge or experience) stands to broaden their understanding through contact with literature from foreign countries. But: that&#039;s a fair point about reading Woolf, the Harry Potter books, etc. Perhaps a contemporary American reader is likely to be slightly more knowledgeable about the context in which Woolf (or, say, Fielding or Defoe) was writing--but probably only slightly. 

Another possible weakness in Esposito&#039;s argument is the fact that Bolaño&#039;s frame of reference is clearly much broader than Latin American literature--&lt;em&gt;The Savage Detectives&lt;/em&gt; employs the voices of characters from many different cultural and literary contexts. No doubt a deep knowledge of contemporary Latin American literature (and culture, history, and politics) would help a reader&#039;s understanding of the novel--but Bolaño also seems to be very much interested in cross-cultural questions about the social, political, cultural, and personal lives and role of poets and poetry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Esposito would dispute the idea that any reader (whatever their background knowledge or experience) stands to broaden their understanding through contact with literature from foreign countries. But: that&#8217;s a fair point about reading Woolf, the Harry Potter books, etc. Perhaps a contemporary American reader is likely to be slightly more knowledgeable about the context in which Woolf (or, say, Fielding or Defoe) was writing&#8211;but probably only slightly. </p>
<p>Another possible weakness in Esposito&#8217;s argument is the fact that Bolaño&#8217;s frame of reference is clearly much broader than Latin American literature&#8211;<em>The Savage Detectives</em> employs the voices of characters from many different cultural and literary contexts. No doubt a deep knowledge of contemporary Latin American literature (and culture, history, and politics) would help a reader&#8217;s understanding of the novel&#8211;but Bolaño also seems to be very much interested in cross-cultural questions about the social, political, cultural, and personal lives and role of poets and poetry.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Shapiro</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Shapiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 14:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-281</guid>
		<description>Thank you for linking to that wonderful essay, Ryan! As a recent rider of the Bola&#241;o bandwagon I appreciate the call to more thoughtfully contextualize lit that comes from lingual and political positions removed from that of a privileged American middle class.

My concern lies in where the logical extension of Scott Esposito&#039;s argument leads. I&#039;m persuaded by his argument that 22,000 Americans bought &lt;i&gt;Savage Detectives&lt;/i&gt; in hardcover because the New York Times helped us reduce his novel into a narrative context we could understand (&quot;It&#039;s like Borges and Marquez&quot;), but does that reductivist principle really differ from our reading of, say, Virginia Woolf? 

By way of exemplifying American ethnocentrism, Esposito reminds us that such-and-such a percentage of Americans couldn&#039;t identify Iraq on a world map in 2003, but how many readers of the Harry Potter novels can point out King&#039;s Cross Station on a map of London? And isn&#039;t part of the point of reading novels written in foreign countries (whether Britain or Catalan) that they can help us remap our world?

Still, I take Esposito&#039;s (and your) main point: without an internationalized canon, American readers&#8212;and American college students required to take one lit survey&#8212;remain essentially provincial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for linking to that wonderful essay, Ryan! As a recent rider of the Bola&ntilde;o bandwagon I appreciate the call to more thoughtfully contextualize lit that comes from lingual and political positions removed from that of a privileged American middle class.</p>
<p>My concern lies in where the logical extension of Scott Esposito&#8217;s argument leads. I&#8217;m persuaded by his argument that 22,000 Americans bought <i>Savage Detectives</i> in hardcover because the New York Times helped us reduce his novel into a narrative context we could understand (&#8220;It&#8217;s like Borges and Marquez&#8221;), but does that reductivist principle really differ from our reading of, say, Virginia Woolf? </p>
<p>By way of exemplifying American ethnocentrism, Esposito reminds us that such-and-such a percentage of Americans couldn&#8217;t identify Iraq on a world map in 2003, but how many readers of the Harry Potter novels can point out King&#8217;s Cross Station on a map of London? And isn&#8217;t part of the point of reading novels written in foreign countries (whether Britain or Catalan) that they can help us remap our world?</p>
<p>Still, I take Esposito&#8217;s (and your) main point: without an internationalized canon, American readers&mdash;and American college students required to take one lit survey&mdash;remain essentially provincial.</p>
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		<title>By: goodreadings</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>goodreadings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-280</guid>
		<description>Scott Esposito recently wrote an excellent &lt;a href=&quot;http://hermanocerdo.anarchyweb.org/index.php/2008/04/the-dream-of-our-youth/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;essay&lt;/a&gt; about how American readers contextualize (or fail to contextualize) works from writers from outside that white male Anglo-American canonical tradition.

In the essay, Esposito discusses the recent American success of Roberto Bolano, and argues that for audiences whose familiarity with Latin American literature doesn&#039;t run much deeper than Marquez and Borges, it can be extremely difficult to fully understand what a writer like Bolano is up to. So: perhaps the historically limited scope of the canon is self-reinforcing, in a way. If we&#039;re only taught how to read canonical white male writers from England and America who write in English, it becomes difficult for the canon to truly integrate works coming from outside that tradition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott Esposito recently wrote an excellent <a href="http://hermanocerdo.anarchyweb.org/index.php/2008/04/the-dream-of-our-youth/" rel="nofollow">essay</a> about how American readers contextualize (or fail to contextualize) works from writers from outside that white male Anglo-American canonical tradition.</p>
<p>In the essay, Esposito discusses the recent American success of Roberto Bolano, and argues that for audiences whose familiarity with Latin American literature doesn&#8217;t run much deeper than Marquez and Borges, it can be extremely difficult to fully understand what a writer like Bolano is up to. So: perhaps the historically limited scope of the canon is self-reinforcing, in a way. If we&#8217;re only taught how to read canonical white male writers from England and America who write in English, it becomes difficult for the canon to truly integrate works coming from outside that tradition.</p>
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		<title>By: Sleight of hand and misdirection &#171; Geek Buffet</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>Sleight of hand and misdirection &#171; Geek Buffet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 19:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-279</guid>
		<description>[...] going on over at Mike&#8217;s academic blog, Ad Nauseam, specifically on the post &#8220;Finding the countercanon.&#8221; Originally, Mike posed his problem and request this way: Back to my problem: as a product [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] going on over at Mike&#8217;s academic blog, Ad Nauseam, specifically on the post &#8220;Finding the countercanon.&#8221; Originally, Mike posed his problem and request this way: Back to my problem: as a product [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 19:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-278</guid>
		<description>Well, you&#039;ve certainly got me thinking about this topic now. &lt;a href=&quot;http://goodreadings.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/michael-chabon-on-literature-as-entertainment/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This post&lt;/a&gt; on Good Readings seems rather relevant to the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you&#8217;ve certainly got me thinking about this topic now. <a href="http://goodreadings.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/michael-chabon-on-literature-as-entertainment/" rel="nofollow">This post</a> on Good Readings seems rather relevant to the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 16:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-277</guid>
		<description>Also, I know Carl Zimmer talks about the craft of science writing in various places. I can&#039;t find the exact blog post I was vaguely thinking of, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://communicatingscience.aaas.org/WorkingWithReporters/Pages/CarlZimmer.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s an interview with him&lt;/a&gt; on the subject, asking what advice he&#039;d give to budding science writers and scientists trying to communicate with the general public. (He points out that he was an English major.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I know Carl Zimmer talks about the craft of science writing in various places. I can&#8217;t find the exact blog post I was vaguely thinking of, but <a href="http://communicatingscience.aaas.org/WorkingWithReporters/Pages/CarlZimmer.aspx" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s an interview with him</a> on the subject, asking what advice he&#8217;d give to budding science writers and scientists trying to communicate with the general public. (He points out that he was an English major.)</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 16:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>k8, good point about the non-fiction. I think a lot of English/language teachers steer away from teaching non-fiction, because it seems harder to have people analyze writing structure and style, since so many of our own English class backgrounds (and so many of the tests we&#039;re supposed to prepare students to take) focused on narrative structure, literary device, etc. Also, from an ESL and lower reading level perspective, a lot of times people perceive non-fiction stuff as being more difficult, because it can tend to focus on more thoughty thoughts and abstract concepts, rather than descriptive settings and conversations.

However, there is obviously a lot of room for teaching non-fiction. This is actually something that seems to come up more in history departments than literature ones. When I was doing my Latin American history concentration at Grinnell, the prof spent a lot of time with us not only discussing the content of the assigned books, but also the actual written structure of the books, looking at what made some books more successful and readable than others, and what the authors&#039; structural choices could mean about their approaches to the material. I wish I&#039;d been able to take even more classes looking at that, because there really is a lot of variance in the way non-fiction books are written.

I also recently went to a talk at work by a history prof talking about his most recent book. It was a biography of a Japanese mid-level post-war community leader (ex-nobility? the mayor? something.) Anyway, the poor prof spent more time defending the fact that he had written a biography than he did telling us about why he thought that particular guy was interesting, because there is apparently a lot of pressure in the Japanese history circles right now to only write things that &quot;expand the theory&quot; and provide &quot;new ways&quot; of looking at, well, stuff that already happened. Instead, I think the prof could have spent less time worrying about that, and more time talking to us about why the subject&#039;s personal diary was such an interesting form of writing, how the subject&#039;s perspective is very different from other diarists of the time, and how this might have influenced the way he chose to write his own biography of the man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>k8, good point about the non-fiction. I think a lot of English/language teachers steer away from teaching non-fiction, because it seems harder to have people analyze writing structure and style, since so many of our own English class backgrounds (and so many of the tests we&#8217;re supposed to prepare students to take) focused on narrative structure, literary device, etc. Also, from an ESL and lower reading level perspective, a lot of times people perceive non-fiction stuff as being more difficult, because it can tend to focus on more thoughty thoughts and abstract concepts, rather than descriptive settings and conversations.</p>
<p>However, there is obviously a lot of room for teaching non-fiction. This is actually something that seems to come up more in history departments than literature ones. When I was doing my Latin American history concentration at Grinnell, the prof spent a lot of time with us not only discussing the content of the assigned books, but also the actual written structure of the books, looking at what made some books more successful and readable than others, and what the authors&#8217; structural choices could mean about their approaches to the material. I wish I&#8217;d been able to take even more classes looking at that, because there really is a lot of variance in the way non-fiction books are written.</p>
<p>I also recently went to a talk at work by a history prof talking about his most recent book. It was a biography of a Japanese mid-level post-war community leader (ex-nobility? the mayor? something.) Anyway, the poor prof spent more time defending the fact that he had written a biography than he did telling us about why he thought that particular guy was interesting, because there is apparently a lot of pressure in the Japanese history circles right now to only write things that &#8220;expand the theory&#8221; and provide &#8220;new ways&#8221; of looking at, well, stuff that already happened. Instead, I think the prof could have spent less time worrying about that, and more time talking to us about why the subject&#8217;s personal diary was such an interesting form of writing, how the subject&#8217;s perspective is very different from other diarists of the time, and how this might have influenced the way he chose to write his own biography of the man.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Shapiro</title>
		<link>http://exad.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/finding-the-countercanon/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Shapiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 14:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://exad.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-275</guid>
		<description>Dana &amp; Katy, this conversation is just wonderful&#8212;in many ways it is a sort of conversation I need to overhear rather than participate in. (As I think the post confesses, I&#039;m very much the sort of academic reader who rather digs Henry James and who doesn&#039;t fully understand what can be exciting about writing that varies from the standard lit fic formulae.)

I am coming to appreciate that the problem of canonicity, in your experience, has had as much to do with top-down methods of academic reading as with the &quot;approved&quot; or &quot;appropriate&quot; texts themselves. Dana, that lesson plan&#8212;and all the convolutions of pedagogical power it implies&#8212;is pretty fantastic. If you go to university in England, I know, you get essentially two parallel syllabi: the assigned texts that everyone in the class should read, and then an enormous list of related texts from which you are advised to pick and choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana &amp; Katy, this conversation is just wonderful&mdash;in many ways it is a sort of conversation I need to overhear rather than participate in. (As I think the post confesses, I&#8217;m very much the sort of academic reader who rather digs Henry James and who doesn&#8217;t fully understand what can be exciting about writing that varies from the standard lit fic formulae.)</p>
<p>I am coming to appreciate that the problem of canonicity, in your experience, has had as much to do with top-down methods of academic reading as with the &#8220;approved&#8221; or &#8220;appropriate&#8221; texts themselves. Dana, that lesson plan&mdash;and all the convolutions of pedagogical power it implies&mdash;is pretty fantastic. If you go to university in England, I know, you get essentially two parallel syllabi: the assigned texts that everyone in the class should read, and then an enormous list of related texts from which you are advised to pick and choose.</p>
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